Staying Sane in Law
Staying Sane in Law with Annmarie Carvalho, the lawyers' therapist. Each episode, Annmarie meets a leader in the legal profession and the therapists who work with them, to talk about balancing high-pressure careers with the ups and downs of everyday life.
Staying Sane in Law
The Trauma-Informed Therapist: Katie McKenna on how vicarious trauma affects lawyers
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In this show, Annmarie Carvalho - The Lawyers Therapist - is in conversation with trauma-informed therapist and TCC colleague Katie McKenna. Katie takes us on a personal journey through her time as a personal injury lawyer, her work at the Lawscot Wellbeing programme, and her career change to become a trauma-informed therapist who specialises in the vicarious trauma that affects lawyers who handle emotionally challenging material - and how to deal with it.
Hi, I'm Amory Carvalho, the lawyer's therapist and CEO of TCC, the Legal Therapy Coaching and Training Agency. Welcome to Stay Insane in Law, the show where every episode I'm in conversation with a lawyer or therapist talking about the gritty realities of life in the law. Now, today I'm so pleased to welcome Katie McKenna to the show, former solicitor, turned trauma-informed psychotherapist. Welcome, Katie.
SPEAKER_01Hi, thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here.
SPEAKER_00I'm so excited. Katie lives in a forest. Okay, I know how that sounds, but you know I've got my squirrel costume. I just, Katie, tell us, where are you in the world that you get to live in a forest?
SPEAKER_01Um, I currently live in a place called Benmore, which is in the middle of nowhere, and there's literally forestry commission land outside my window, and I have regular red squirrel visitors.
SPEAKER_02Very cool. I I'm assuming Andrew has mentioned his squirrel costume before. I'm gonna assume that this is a joke, purely just for my own sort of emotional safety. I'm gonna assume it's a joke. Um Katie, uh, the name of the place you live, because I love the way you say this. Please say it. Say the real name. You know I love this name.
SPEAKER_01I well, the newest thing to me is a thing called Dunun.
SPEAKER_02Dunun. Okay, I I apologize to all our Scottish listeners, but it it is wonderful to have someone from Scotland on the podcast. I think you're our first Scottish person on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00And in honour of that, uh, ladies and gentlemen, I give you Flower Scotland.
SPEAKER_02And so you were a lawyer yourself in Scotland. And during that time you worked for the Law Society, uh, supporting high street practices and soul practitioners and other lawyers. Um, you were also instrumental in creating Law Scott Wellbeing, which I'd love to hear a bit about. Um, and I think it's fair to say you've always been particularly focused on supporting others, supporting other lawyers, supporting particularly juniors and trainees, and then you retrained and became a trauma-informed therapist. And we work together at TCC and you support lawyers across the whole of the UK from lots of different practice areas. And, and this is where Andrew's gonna get really interested. You have the best hobby known to man or woman. What is your hobby, Katie?
SPEAKER_01Um I'm the idealist. Um I started out with static trapeze, and I now kind of predominantly perform on hoop, but I have dabbled in chains and silks as well.
SPEAKER_00So when you say hoop, we're not talking about hula hoop art. This is a hoop in the air.
SPEAKER_01I can hula hoop, but there's basically this is a suspended like metal hoop. Um means it's about 95 kind of centimetres in diameter, and it's like yeah, dangling from the roof.
SPEAKER_00How high, how high up in the air is this hoop?
SPEAKER_01Um, it depends. I'd like to be quite close to the ground just in case I do fall.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it can be pretty high, but it's an excellent piece of apparatus to spin about and I mean most people like my closeness to the ground is like my feet are touching it.
SPEAKER_00So give us a give us a give us a height in there. What's the highest hooping you've done?
SPEAKER_01Um, probably not that high, to be honest. I have done like flying trapeze, which was pretty high, and that was like pretty scary to like be like you're literally like you were like harnessed in, but like it was definitely a good few meters in there.
SPEAKER_02I have to say, Katie, you had me at I Dabbled in Chains. There's a t-shirt. Andrew, we're gonna make that into a t-shirt as well. I dabbled in chains. But this is fab because it's really interesting. Obviously, traditionally, you have this kind of idea of like the blank canvas therapist and no one knows anything about you, but I think it's really interesting for people to hear about the kind of the whole of a person. Um, and because so much of what we'll talk about today is about your work as a trauma-informed therapist, and we know, don't we, trauma is held in the body, you know. And so I just love this idea that in your personal life, you are you are having, you know, engaging in these activities that are so much about your body and releasing because therapy and the stuff you and I do day-to-day talking to people, and we might do breath work and other things like that, but primarily talking, it's one way of getting things out, isn't it? But there are many different ways to do so.
SPEAKER_01I would say that like it's really hard to think about things. And I've said before that literally as soon as I go upside down on a hoop, it's like all the worries and thoughts like fall out of my head, um, which is a beautiful thing, and you kind of have to be quite mindful with it because you need to know about where your body is, how your lines are looking, that you don't really think about anything else. You're just thinking about what the next move and like what else you want to do and where your hands should be so that you don't like splat on the floor. Um and I think there's almost a creative element to it, which I never really had before. Like, as much as we might be quite creative with drafting as a lawyer, you don't really get the true creativity in terms of actually being able to create art with your body or through music. So it's definitely a creative pursuit, which I think is so healing, if that makes sense. And I also kind of think that it's one of these um it's one of these hobbies that does hurt you so badly. So it does make me wonder like what's going on in terms of like you come away with some really, really horrible bruises, you lose skin. Like it's not for the faint-hearted, and I suppose that's really what's pushing you out of your comfort zone to grow and to to to get stronger. And sometimes you're absolutely astounded about what you've just done. Like you look back at a video and go, is that me?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And it's immersive, like you say, because it hurts and it's getting you have to be on the board. It's like when I talk to clients about horse riding or yoga or you know, intense immersive forms of relaxation are often so useful, aren't they, for someone with a busy brain, which most of us in the legal profession or all lawyers have busy brains and that that creativity as well. Like um watching some of the videos of this is a slight segue, but Glenn Hansard, the Irish musician who died last week at his funeral in Dublin yesterday, and like the creativity and the music, and particularly, you know, that Irish music where that Celtic music where it's sort of going along and it they're creating as they're going, and it goes on, the music goes on forever. And I was I was so struck by it, it was so beautiful, and everyone was so in the moment, even though it was incredibly sad. And I and weirdly, I started thinking about lawyers and how, you know, being in the moment, it's quite hard to do that when you're in a time-pressured on-the-clock profession, where as you say, traditionally, often you're not creativity, hasn't necessarily been prized. Um, and so yeah, being in the moment and being alive and having the ability to be creative saves us in so many ways, doesn't it? I think. You know what? Well, just to kind of go back a little bit, when I was saying earlier on in your legal career, pretty much from the start, you were involved in roles which involved some degree of mentoring and thinking about others. So there was clearly always something in you that was interested in other people and perhaps the deeper psychology of things. How did it develop in that way? And how did you end up where you are now, I guess?
SPEAKER_01I think I've always been quite a good listener. I feel like that was quite a natural ability, I suppose, I had. Even in my job's pre-law, like I worked in a call center, so I was never terrified of the phone when I actually started my traineeship, which I think astounded people. Um, and again, with that, you were listening to people on the phone, you were sorting out their customer service issue, whatever it might be. And then even just working behind a bar, you were speaking to people, you were engaging with people, and there's almost that recognition that from quite a young age that people just wanted to be heard, and that I kind of naturally had that ability to kind of hold that space even before I knew what holding space was. And when I think back to making my decisions for university, there wasn't really much in the way of career guidance when I grew up, and it was very much you've got very good grades, you can either become a lawyer, a doctor, or an accountant. I was like, Well, I'm scared of blood and needles, so medicine's out, hate maths, so accountancy's out, I'll have to do law. So I felt like law was something that I kind of fell into, and a lot of people, other people, parents and whatnot were just like, Oh, I'm so proud of you for what you've done and what you've achieved. Um, but I think from the moment I started my traineeship, I kind of realised that I'd made a massive mistake. Um everyone was like, Oh, we want to be partners. And I looked at the partners that I worked with and they were literally grey. They never went outside, they were like vampires, they had family that they'd never seen, they didn't have lives, there was no joy, there was no joy whatsoever. So I think that was almost quite a sobering moment where I was like, What have I done? It's quite a scary thing when you're actually going to realise it. But um I suppose it was a blessing that when I qualified, it was at the height of the recession, so there weren't really many jobs and what I thought I wanted to do in terms of commercial property. Um, so I did have to diversify a little bit, which ended up being quite a blessing because it allowed me to focus on the good bits in terms of actually interacting with clients. And my clients ended up being other solicitors, which was amazing. And again, I spent a lot of my kind of early years travelling across Scotland, um, speaking to high street firms, sole practitioner firms, rural practice rural practices um across the whole length and breadth of Scotland, which did end up with like a lot of miles being like a crewed in a little high-end II 10 Harold. Name that's our Harold Bishop, no less. And I was like, I'm afraid in so much time, I have to call it a boy's name, or like people just think I'm really, really sad. So it's like me and Harold are going to Orkney, me and Carols are going to Evernotex. And people are like, I can't believe her boyfriend's called Harold.
SPEAKER_02Was this the seed then for thinking, okay, actually I really enjoy working with people? Maybe actually I'm interested in becoming a therapist. Like, what was it that made you take that leap?
SPEAKER_01I suppose what really kind of almost kind of solidified it, like I recognized what a privileged position I was in. I was traveling around speaking to people and they were telling me what the real situation was in terms of what was causing them stress in their workplaces, like what regulation was really harming their business and really kind of stagnating things, what their fears were. And it was almost about thinking, well, what can I do with this information that's really going to make things a little bit better? And then a job came up with the Law Society. And again, I think that was probably when I really took my career to the next level in terms of actually thinking, well, I can turn this into change. Um, I did go in thinking that I was like going to put a smiling Glaswegian face on the Law Society, which at that time and probably still to this day is very Edinburgh-centric. Um and I think my role was very much to listen to people and actually see what we could do to change things in terms of what support um high street and soul practitioner firms really needed from the law society. Um and one of the things that I'm, I suppose, proudest of was really Law Scott Wellbeing, which was really the first step towards acknowledging that mental health in the legal profession in Scotland maybe wasn't the greatest, and there was really no support out there. Lock air existed, don't get me wrong, they were very much able to advertising, but in terms of actual tangible resources and support that was coming from the Law Society, there wasn't anything there. Whereas now Law Society or Law Scott Wellbeing is still going to this day. They do events, they have so many resources. Again, how to look after yourself, how to look after a client, how to look after colleagues that you're worried about. And again, it's about opening up these conversations that maybe sometimes feel a bit awkward and feel a bit weird, or you feel like you don't have all the answers. So at least we it it felt like a step in the right direction.
SPEAKER_02The number of stories I've heard over the years of people who are like, you know, just from a junior level, just go in this room and read all this testimony or watch these videos for eight hours. Uh nothing was said about the content of it, no preparation, no support afterwards. And then just get on with it. And often we do, like you're in this sort of strangely dissociated, like sort of almost like an emotional twilight zone where you're you're not aware that you've taken anything on. Um, and then it comes out sideways in some reaction later on to something in your personal life. Or you don't realize even for even for people like us who deal therapists who deal with feelings all day long, I can still be taken by surprise by my reaction to something, usually my personal life. And then I'll realise, oh, it's not about this, it's about that thing that someone told me in therapy the other day, and I just haven't realized that it's, you know, I've assimilated it and I need to think about it or get some support. Um and trauma-informed practice, you know, it's it everyone's talking about it. In practical terms, you know, it it can mean working with people in quite a different way. Often, if you're working with people who are vulnerable, you can get inadvertently stuck in a sort of parent-child kind of relationship where they're sort of infantilized, they don't feel empowered, they don't feel they have choices or control. And in that way, you can inadvertently perpetuate the trauma. I did, because you know, our listeners won't know that, or many of them won't know, that when you go through therapy training, you have to do many hours of work uh for organisations, you do placements, um, and and you had particularly interesting placements, I think. So it'd be interesting to sort of hear, you know, about your past and and the placements that you were doing.
SPEAKER_01So when I think about how I actually decided to actually go down this street, it almost felt a bit preordained from the get-go in terms of listening to people and almost having that focus on trying to make other people's lives that little bit easier um or that little bit lighter. Um and after I set up Lost Call Well We Being, um it wasn't long after that that kind of COVID hit, and that almost gave me personally that opportunity to slow down, which I don't think I had done in years. Um, and that was quite a sobering moment to actually realize, well, I've got this time, what can I do with it? So I started um volunteering for the low-care helpline. Um, and it was really the low-care helpline that really kind of pushed me in the direction of maybe you could do this professionally. Um, and they almost kind of planted the seed, which kind of started me thinking, well, I'll just do this course, we'll see how it goes. So I did my Costca Foundations course, and then after that, like you're kind of bitten by the bug, and you just think this is so amazing. I want to do more of it. And before I knew it, I had signed up to a master's and yeah, moved to Birmingham, um, which was again totally out of anyone's comfort zone. Um, but one thing I would say is I mean, I don't know whether or not uh people really are aware of this, about how intense becoming a therapist is in terms of yeah, it's there's a financial element, there's you're working on for free. There's also an emotional intense element to it, in terms of you are literally striffing yourself bare and rebuilding, and you're looking at everything the good, the bad, the ugly, the shadows that you pretended that weren't there, like all the horrible things that you've done, you almost have to kind of get to a point of acceptance with all of that, and that in itself is terrifying. Like there's no other word for it. Um, but one thing I would say about that is you never do it alone. And the friends that I made while I was on both of my courses are friends for life because it's almost friendship on steroids, because you are literally you're sharing things that you've not shared with friends that you've known since primary school. Um, like your darkest beers, all the worries, like horrible things, how you feel about your parents, all these various things that you maybe aren't as honest about. The friends that you make when you're actually on that LP journey, it are just amazing. Like unbelievable. Next level. But in terms of the placements, yeah, I had two placements when I was doing my masters. One of them was with an LGBTQ plus organisation, which was really, really an excellent opportunity to learn and for exposure to gender-affirming um approaches in care. And it was such a beautiful experience overall. And I suppose the one that really kind of touched me the most was my work with the Coventry Rape and Sexual Abuse Centre. This is quite a funny story, and I'm really, really I'm not gonna name any names, but I had two different um supervisors while I was undertaking these. And my supervisor for the LGBTQ, she actually took me to supervision the concept of me because she was like, I can't understand why this girl is going to work for a rape and sexual abuse centre. She's just starting out in this, like, she should be starting out with anxiety, building up to depression, and then like maybe kind of going into trauma then. So it almost felt like she had this path for me in terms of well, that you shouldn't be starting at the scariest part. But the way I looked at it was like, well, if I'm going to do this job, I need I don't know what's going to come through the door. So I want to make sure that I am fully prepared for how dark life can really, really get. And I would say that working for Crash Act was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life in terms of it pushed me to an absolute limit. But it was it was just so beautiful to kind of work in a trauma-informed way, to learn that way of working and to to almost work for these survivors and really make such a massive difference in their lives and then it was so rewarding at the end of the day, and it was such a massive privilege to be part of their journey. And again, it kind of yeah, it might not have been everyone's most obvious choice in terms of well, not everyone would really want to work in that area, not everyone's really comfortable with the concept of totally sexual abuse or rape or sexual violence, whereas I kinda recognise that we need to be able to sit in the dark with someone because it's quite scary if you're in there by yourself.
SPEAKER_00Do you think your background, because you we've had lots of family lawyers on the show, and we've, you know, uh obviously we we've talked about family law a lot and criminal law, but you also had uh a stint in personal injury law. Do you think that prepped you in some way? Because we talk about how difficult it can be for family lawyers and the the sort of the trauma that they take on board unconsciously, but personal injury law, I I'm guessing that must take it to does it take it to another level or does it just take it in a different direction? Because it sounds like personal injury could have an awful lot of very challenging stories in it as well. Do you think that training has helped you?
SPEAKER_01Definitely. And I actually remember my first day when I worked for a large personal injury firm in Glasgow, and there was a team meeting, I was getting introduced to everybody, and like you could bring your cases, and someone brought a video of someone getting run over by a bus. And I literally left that meeting going, What have I done? Where am I? Why is this becoming normalized? Like they're just like, Oh, can you can you can you rewind that? Oh, and obviously they're trying to assess the liability in terms of whether the bus driver should have stopped and whether they could have seen her and X, Y, Z, but it was just such a like a horrific and harrowing first day. Um, and I would say that personal injury almost kind of gives you that opportunity that they'll know exactly what the legal definition of vicarious trauma is, but they might not be in the position to actually make that connection in terms of that they are being potentially exposed to vicarious trauma on a regular basis, in terms of witness statements, these horrible videos, photographs, and even just when I think about the really, really intense work that comes in terms of catastrophic injuries, that's so intense, and there's also a huge emotional element to that because you're dealing with someone whose life has completely changed and needs additional support. So there's almost that that need that desire to help to do things. But I don't know if it made it any better or worse. But again, I suppose it's about recognising that a lot of things happen, but accidents happen and the how almost kind of prolific and pervasive trauma is in our daily lives. Like the amount of CAR accidents you might see on a motorway, or even just how prolific sexual violence against women is on a regular basis. The even just the thought that lawyers are somehow immune to that just boggles my brain a little bit.
SPEAKER_02It's interesting because often I think people think trauma will present itself in a way in which they expect like someone will be crying, or it but actually it has so many different faces, doesn't it? Some people get defensive, some people get offensive, you know, some people just get irritable, and some people do cry. And I yeah, I think there's a sort of misinterpretation. Then there's the whole brigade who say, Oh, everyone says they've got trauma these days. You know, what what do you say to those people, Katie?
SPEAKER_01I always kind of worry that those are the people that are not ready to almost acknowledge the trauma that they've experienced. And that might in itself just be that way of actually, well, if I can totally disassociate and really, if anything, go in the offense rather than um it may make me feel better about what's happened to me. But I kind of think that there's a growth moment there potentially for these people in terms of, oh, why do I feel so challenged by that? Why do I feel so threatened?
SPEAKER_02How do you think a lawyer can practice in a trauma-informed way? Like, does anything kind of come to mind for you? What does that mean?
SPEAKER_01I suppose when I think about how I learned how to act and um work in a trauma-informed way, again, that basis is almost that kind of awareness of what trauma is and how the trauma's responses actually are alive in the body and alive in the Room with when you're with your client. And it's actually about almost kind of thinking about to from a perspective of the values of safety, the values of client empowerment, in terms of how can you empower this client in terms of actually working in a way that reinforces their strength and their control and whatever the situation might be. And again, it's almost about being alive to the fact that asking certain questions might actually be traumatised them. So again, it's actually about working in a way that isn't going to be triggering or exacerbating in sort of past trauma and working with the window of tolerance, which is something that I work with, even just with clients on a day-to-day basis, in terms of understanding where that safe zone is. Um and again, it's almost that kind of foundation of collaboration and choice in terms of actually that you're doing this together and there's really no massive power imbalance, which is really what I think is key. Um one thing I would say is that it's amazing to see so many people wanting to work in a trauma-informed way in law. But one thing that I think is potentially missing is actually extending that kindness, that patience, that that empathy to the people that we work with, to our colleagues, to the other side, to the secretaries, to the receptionists, to the trainee, to the supervisees. Um and again, I think that that's maybe and I recognise it. I'm talking from my own personal experience, where sometimes you didn't have the best boss or people didn't speak to you kindly or with respect. But and again, it's also quite skewed by my time answering calls on the law care helpline, where you hear some of the horror stories about how other people treat their staff. And again, sometimes it comes up in the work that I do with clients at TCC. There's almost that element that sometimes we are so stressed, we are so pressurized that we forget to act with basic common decency and respect. And I think that's maybe something that we could all learn a lot that more for. Regardless of how busy we are, there's always time for a thank you. There's always time to explain something to the trainee.
SPEAKER_02It's that unthinking behavior, isn't it? And not realizing, I often hear this from Juniors, like that their boss might, they might not have even done anything overt or said anything overt, but the boss isn't realizing what energy they're giving off in the way they conduct themselves. And so everyone else is sort of vibrating on this frequency of stress because it's emanated from the boss, and the boss says, Oh, I've I've not done anything wrong. So it's it can be subtle as well.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes that's almost about being a bit more self-aware in terms of that energy that you're giving off. And actually, well, how what have I done to emotionally regulate myself today? Have I journaled? Have I done some exercise? Have I taken some moment to almost kind of calm down and get into my window of tolerance? Have I done something that brings me joy? One thing that I think that all lawyers need is more joy. We all need more joy. Like, I think that is something if I could describe it to people, I would. And again, it's something that it's almost quite a struggle to actually get lawyers to think about the things that really make them happy, to really bring them joy. And again, it's something that almost kind of goes hand in hand with the work that I did at Crasak as well. It's almost about getting to a point where survivors felt safe enough to enjoy life again and to do things that made them happy because they were stuck in this survival zone for so long that the concept of joy felt so foreign. And again, I think there's some similarities there in terms of the work that I do with solicitors.
SPEAKER_00You've talked about this, haven't you? You're non you set yourself some non-negotiables to do with exercise and self-care. And and how do you get non-negotiables? How do you build those into your life? Because that's something that would be hugely valuable if someone could take that away from this chat today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I suppose the easiest way to start with any sort of non-negotiables is to start really, really small in terms of actually just like five minutes where I just slow down. And uh, because I always use this analogy and any glides on the call, they're like, oh gosh, she says this to everyone. Um there's almost that element that sometimes when we are going at like 110 miles an hour, our brains are shook up like a snow globe. You can't focus on any one thought, they are everywhere, they're literally like falling about, you can't focus. Whereas if we take a moment to breathe and actually touch space and actually think about what's going on for us, we can allow those thoughts to settle a little bit, allow the world to calm down and slow down for a moment where we can think, oh, there's the thought I need. I'm firing on all cylinders in terms of my prefrontal cortex now. I can do this. And again, it's almost about starting small so that you can build on these non-negotiables, where it's like, well, maybe you start with like a half an hour in the gym and then or you start by a class or taking making sure that there's time to read at the end of the night or do some yoga, whatever it might be. But it's about finding what works for you and almost kind of structuring it into your day in a safe way, or or dabbling in chains.
SPEAKER_02Or dabbling in chains, or tying yourself up in silks and I feel really boring all of a sudden. Angie, do you feel boring? Well, you've got your screen guys.
SPEAKER_00I think what's so impressive is the fact that chains automatically sound big and heavy. And the fact that you can just dabble in them is making me think that you must be in the most amazing physical condition ever. I can barely lift a chain, you just dabble with them.
SPEAKER_01That makes me sound like a pure athlete, but it's like I'm recovering from an injury at the moment, so I'm slowly getting back to it. But um, I just like I think age is like catching up with me. So I've had to I've managed to stream a hamstring and then like doing my knee technically. Um so basically I've been hobbling about for the last while and I've not been doing anything. So it's only within the last maybe three weeks that I've I've been upside down again.
SPEAKER_00So is that just to be clear, you strained your hamstring and hurt your knee in the air with chains?
SPEAKER_01I I did both of those in well actually one of them was in hoop uh over I tried to do a split where maybe I wasn't as warmed up as I wanted to be, and yeah, had a heart matter. But then I was in I was in like a silk hammock, so it's like almost like one by continuous silk, so you're almost canal. And I literally like I heard my knee pop and my instructor heard my knee pop, and I was like, that doesn't sound healthy. So I'd kind of like, and then I had to drive to the ferry after that, so that was like a good hour's worth of driving on like half a knee.
SPEAKER_02Katie, it has been an absolute joy to see you here today and to have you on Stone Sign in Law. Thank you so much. You can find both Katie and I at RTC website, cavaliotherapy.com. That's C-A-R-V-A-L-H-O. Or I think we both hang around on LinkedIn a bit, don't we?
SPEAKER_01Like I feel that LinkedIn brings back a lot of uh kind of memories for me as a lawyer. So I try in a kind of I go in as needed.
SPEAKER_02Um you're moderate about it on you. I think you you display it. From O and C. Moderate. You dabble. Let's say you dabble in LinkedIn. So that's LinkedIn.com forward slash in forward slash Amory Carvalho for mine. Uh you can find my legal lag in the column in the Financial Times on Thursdays in their full disclosure newsletter. And please check out our podcast episodes at stay insane in law.bruzbuzzsprout.com or wherever wherever you get your podcast. Katie, can you give us a quick goodbye?
SPEAKER_01Nope.
SPEAKER_02Zag.
SPEAKER_01You're gonna zig when you want me to zag? Uh no, and thank you so much. It's been so lovely to chat. I'm not as terrified as I was at this time.
SPEAKER_02Do you know what? It's been so fun. And actually, I've written down a few of your catchphrases and dabbling in chains will I may get that tattooed on my arm. But I normally take us out with remember we're all a little bit wonky, but actually, today we're gonna say zig when other people say zag.
SPEAKER_01Is that different perspective? I kind of think everyone just thinks that there's a certain way to do things with us. There are those ways to skin a cat.
SPEAKER_02I don't skin cats. I don't know. We don't we like cats on this show. We like dogs and we also like cats.
SPEAKER_00We don't we don't like squirrels though, do we, Emory?
SPEAKER_02I'm alright with squirrels, I'm just not done anything to squirrels.