Staying Sane in Law
Staying Sane in Law with Annmarie Carvalho, the lawyers' therapist. Each episode, Annmarie meets a leader in the legal profession and the therapists who work with them, to talk about balancing high-pressure careers with the ups and downs of everyday life.
Staying Sane in Law
The Men's Wellbeing Champion: Lawyer James McFarlane on founding the Men's Wellbeing group
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In this show Annemarie Carvalho - The Lawyers' Therapist meets James McFarlane, in-house lawyer at NatWest, men's mental health advocate and popular musician on the Scottish music scene. James talks about his journey into the law from his roots in Glasgow's East End, and his subsequent mission to create safe spaces where lawyers can talk about - and find help - with mental health issues, addictions and stress. The Men's Wellbeing group is now celebrating its fourth birthday and going from strength to strength.
Hello, I'm Amory Carvalho, the lawyer's therapist and CEO of TCC, the Legal Therapy Coaching and Training Agency. Welcome to Stay Insane in Law, the show where every episode I'm in conversation with a lawyer or therapist talking about the gritty realities of life in the law. Today I am so pleased to welcome James McFarlane to the show. James, welcome to Stay Insane in Law.
SPEAKER_02Hello. Thank you very much for having me on today. I'm really excited.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thanks so much for being with me and Andrew today. Andrew, do you want to say hello?
SPEAKER_03Hi. Hey James. Hi, hello. I'm so excited. I've got so many questions for you. I just, for the for the listeners at home, James and I were having a chat. It turns out that he is obviously an accomplished musician. If you don't know, check him out on Spotify. And uh he knows my cousin, Ben Walker, who is an up-and-coming musician uh in Scotland as well. And they know each other. So I'm sort of I'm really enjoying the I'm the uncle of someone who's really talented thing right now.
SPEAKER_00So you're vicarious glory.
SPEAKER_03I'll take it.
SPEAKER_01But actually, we we will come on to this because we did talk in our episode with Michael Phillips about creativity as a lawyer and how often a lot of lawyers are a bit sort of frustrated because you don't have outlets for creativity, which we all have. And actually, that's a huge part of your story, isn't it, James? So we will come on to that. I think um that will be really interesting. So, just as by way of intro, so you're an in-house lawyer at NatWest in the outsourcing technology and IP team. You are also the founder of the men's well-being group for the legal profession, which has just celebrated its fourth birthday. Do we do we have a fanfare, Andrew? Should we do it?
SPEAKER_03We have a fourth birthday fanfare coming up now.
SPEAKER_01Um now, one of the key things we're going to talk about today is men's mental health in the legal profession, which is a massive issue. And um, I just wanted to reel off a list of your titles because I think you are very dedicated to mental health in the profession. You're a law care champion, a law scot well-being champion, and a Law Scott Foundation mentor. So that's pretty, pretty impressive. So thank you for coming in today. Um, I've already mentioned uh your role as a Law Scott Foundation mentor, um, which I think it'd be great to hear a little bit about what that actually means. Because as I understand that you you help people who are coming into the profession who are from less advantaged backgrounds, which is so important because I think the law, like many professions, is uh not as inclusive as it needs to be. So could you tell us a bit about your upbringing, your journey into law, what it was like for you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course, of course. So I grew up in the east end of Glasgow, which um and I and I was the first person, along with my twin, actually, in my family to to go to university. But before all that, before I went to university, I grew up um in a single parent household with my mum. I had a good relationship with my dad growing up. Um still very much to saw him often. Um and and when I was younger, I had a twin 11 years later. My younger brother was born. Uh so I've got two brothers. And I think growing up, my life was full of sports, played a lot of different sports, but also I read a lot of books, and both of those things kind of carried through into my life. Then when it came to being a lawyer or wanting to be a lawyer, it was always something that quite interested me because of the fact that I just naturally hate injustice, and also I watched a lot of kind of police court dramas growing up, things like the bill. I used to always watch that on a Wednesday after football training. So I was always interested in a lot, but never really thought about being a lawyer because one, I didn't know any lawyers. In fact, I don't think I knew many people that had gone to university. So I it it didn't seem like a possibility for me. So it wasn't even a thought that came into my head until I got my higher results and I get good results, and I was like, oh, I'll need to do something with this. So then I started thinking about uni and decided that going in today law would open a lot of doors for me. So even at that point, I didn't think it was a realistic target for me to become a lawyer. And Mel Robbins talks about it quite a bit, uh about drifting. So a lot of lawyers can just drift into the profession because that's kind of where they end up. And I wouldn't say that's completely me because I wanted to be a lawyer, but I just never thought it was a realistic thing for me until I became mud.
SPEAKER_01Going into it, I mean, it's such a it's such a hard road, isn't it? And like you say, if you don't have, you know, people in your family or people in your vicinity who've done it, it can feel like it's not a realistic option. Going into the profession, was it what you thought it would be? What were those early years like?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think for me, I didn't really know what to expect, which was quite tough. As I say, I didn't know any lawyers, I hadn't spoke to any. So went to uni, and even that was pretty tough because I was surrounded by people who were extremely intelligent, a lot of people who already knew each other. Whereas for me, I was kind of going in cold, didn't know much about it. In fact, didn't know that it took seven years to qualify. So that was quite a quite a wake-up call. Um, and then when I finally got comfortable with being myself at uni, which I think took five years, uh then suddenly you move into the commercial legal world where there's so many expectations that aren't spoken about, but people just know about, and I didn't. So I found that pretty tough to to begin with, and I was actually very lucky in the sense that the firm that I trained at was full of really good people, really welcoming people. So it could have been a lot worse, but I just struggled with that transition. I think it was tough in a number of levels because I went in being from the east end of Glasgow, so I've got what people used to refer to as a strong Glasgow accent, which I think I I think is fair, but in my experience that is just an accent, that is just my accent, the way that everybody round about me speaks. And when I joined the profession, I was very conscious of that, and that's just another thing that makes it difficult to communicate because not only was I quiet, not only was I not confident, but I was also constantly thinking, do people understand me because of my accent, do I need to slow down how I speak? And having that on your mind, along with the rest of just the pressure of being a trainee lawyer, which should never be underestimated, that that was tough. So I was at this, I was in this place, I just wasn't sure who I was, who I wanted to be. And I remember after my first day, I was coming back in the train, I phoned my mum and I said, Well, I don't I don't think I can do this. And I was looking up, I specifically remember looking up jobs and teaching, and looking up, I was actually looking at being a train driver, which it was just because I was on a train. I think at the time I was like, this doesn't seem too bad. So um yeah, that there's it was a bit a bit of a shock to the system.
SPEAKER_01I was at a conference recently, and um there were two of us women with mankinian accents, and someone said to me in the queue for the lunch thing, she was like, Oh, it's so refreshing to hear different accents at legal conferences, and then for the rest of the conference, everyone proceeded to mix me and the other northern woman up with each other. So hi Rachel, Rachel's my um Rachel Donald's my like northern twin. But yeah, it I was really when we were talking um a couple of weeks ago about this episode, we talked about the training contract and those early years in law and those early days in law. Um, and I I think I said to you, a lot, I see quite a lot of people in therapy who really struggle in those early days, early years. And and lots of them then go on to stay in law and have, you know, fantastic careers. So I think it's a bit, I think sometimes there's this myth that if you struggle during the training contract, that means you're not cut out to be a lawyer, you're not this enough, you're not that enough, whatever. Because it it's a really, really tough time, isn't it? Um, and yeah, I think I I struggled during that time. I started seeing a therapist, like, and it and it was kind of revolutionary looking into kind of mindfulness and and exactly as you say, measures of self-worth. Because when you, if you're the kid who gets the good grades and all that stuff, then when you go into the actual practice of law, often what you find is, you know, the the effort that you put in is not necessarily matched by the output. Like, you know, in my old era of family law, often, you know, you you could try and build a really good case and put your best foot forward and all this, but the outcome was still not what your client wanted. So if your self-esteem is solely attached to what other people think of you, what your clients think of you, what your supervisors think of you, what the outcome of a case is, then you know, you're gonna have a pretty miserable existence. So do you feel like, you know, what what was it that helped you to get through those early years, do you think? And how have you kind of come out the other side with your self-esteem vaguely intact?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So I think firstly on the myth, if you struggle when you're a trainee, then you're not cut out to be a lawyer. I I think firstly, if that's the case, if that was the case, I would never be a lawyer, but here I am, uh, five years qualified. So that's that's ideal, that's an achievement and it's itself. But then how did I get through those early years? I think it was down to sheer persistence, uh sheer grip. One thing about getting your self-esteem from achievements growing up also means that you have to persist through hard times. So I had this type of personality when things get tough, I will just keep going. That can be good for you in a lot of senses, it can be bad for you in a lot of senses, but I did just keep going, just make sure that I was continuing to put the work in, and I made sure that even if it didn't work out for me, that I left everything out on the table that did have an impact on my mental health, of course it did, but that's what I done, and it wasn't so much at that point about being necessarily interested in what I was doing, it was just making sure that I was getting it done because I had a point to prove to myself, and also there were many people before I started going into law who were telling me about how difficult it would be, how difficult it would be to get a job and then to qualify. And I had all of those thoughts in the back of my mind, so I just made sure that I I got there. Um, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't without struggle at all.
SPEAKER_01I wanted to talk to you about men in the legal profession today. So, in our one of our previous episodes, we spoke with Helen Shaw about women and mental health and in the law, and we are living in an age where we are talking about female mental health and you know the mental health of women and girls a lot, which is really important. Alongside that, I think, and and again, thinking about my therapeutic experience, but also thinking about my experiences growing up, boys and men, you know, who I grew up with. I I can't name, and this is where it gets a bit dark, but I'll go there because we're gonna be honest today. I can't name any girls or women who I grew up with who have taken their own lives or who have died through alcoholism or addiction of some sort. I can name about eight or nine boys and men who that has happened to, who I grew up with. So I think we're living in a time which is a bit weird for boys and men in the sense of there's lots of stuff about the manosphere, and there's lots of stuff about Andrew Tate and adolescence and all that stuff that's kind of out there. And I'm gonna put this out there, and I'm gonna be one of those hideous wankers. Can we say wank?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think that's okay. I think that's okay.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna be one of those hideous wankers who uses that awful phrase. As a mother of boys, you know that that bullshit. I've I've put it out there. Andrew, you're a father of boys. Boys.
SPEAKER_03I am very much so, yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, I having boys and thinking about experiences of men in my family and boys and men that I grew up with, as I say, but particularly having boys has really opened my eyes. Having boys right now, our boys are nine, and sort of seeing how easy it is for boys to get a bit lost, go a bit off track. And so I feel very strong about it. That's a really long-winded way of saying I feel really strongly about what we're talking about today. So I wanted to ask you about everything around this, but I guess particularly your men's support group, what does that mean to you? How did you end up forming it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, men's well-being is something that's extremely, extremely important to me. And in fact, when Anne Marie, when you were uh uh mentioning that exercise, that's not something that I consciously think about, but I was also getting a little bit emotional when you were you you were speaking about that because that was when I was thinking about the guys that I know that that have struggled. Um and I'm gonna say the thing that I always say, which is that is not to say that women don't struggle, women do struggle. I've also experienced in my life a a lot of women who who have struggled um with their mental health, but when we're speaking about men's mental health, it's really important because there needs to be a a space for that. I think one thing that's happening in the world just now which isn't helpful to anybody is there's this perception of is it a kind of us versus them type thing. Men uh men are to blame or women are to blame, and none of that is true. For me, life is a team sport, and we're all on this planet to help each other and help each other experience life and experience the passage of time in the best way that we possibly can. So I don't think that there's it's not a zero-sum game to look solely at women's well-being, to look solely at men's well-being. We can help everybody. Um but the reason that I set up a men's well-being group is because we've all seen the stats, and you just mentioned it there, but we've all seen the stats around male suicide. I know that when I was in a dark place, when I was feeling suicidal, I did not know where to go, did not know who to speak to, and ended up not speaking to anybody, and then you get in this spiral to the point where you uh think that the world would be better off if you weren't in it. I now have a t-shirt. It's not a t-shirt, I have a hoodie that says to the person behind me, the world is a better place because you're in it. You've probably seen them, I don't know. But anyway, I think everybody should be reminded of that firstly. And the point around the group that I set up was to create a safe space for men to just speak about whatever they wanted to speak about with no no judgment, with complete trust, and to create a community where people can help each other through challenges and also help them celebrate the good times because I also don't think that we do that enough. So, what it is is a one-hour session that we have online every month, the last Friday of every month. The reason it's the last Friday is to create a bit of consistency, but also to create something for people to look forward to at the end of the month. Everybody looks forward to a Friday, everybody also looks forward to the end of the month, because that's generally when payday is. Um and and what we've tried to do is create that safe space where you can just come and be yourself and we can speak about a well-being topic, but you can just build a community along the way. And in the the four years that we've done that, I think we've done that, and now we've got a WhatsApp group, we meet up in person a lot, whether that's a couple of us or as a group, and it's just become a nice place where people can go and chat about that, and and that's really helpful because there aren't many safe spaces out there specifically to help men.
SPEAKER_01Did you find, you know, when you set it up, did you find that um the guys were it was tricky for them to open up or was it quite sort of organic? Like did it just kind of flow easily? I'm just kind of interested.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so the very first session, it wasn't intentional at the time, even though I could look back and go, I did mean that, but I never but the first session was about why it's so difficult to speak about your mental health as a lawyer. And in that session, I think at first we're all meeting as strangers, we didn't really know each other. So I think at first it was probably pretty uncomfortable to speak about that, but what I did was I told them my story, why I had set the group up, and I think that then opened the doors for other people to speak about why they had joined the first session, and then what I did was just ask the group direct questions. So, why do you find it so difficult? And I think starting it in that foot has just opened the door for every other session after that for people to just be open and honest about how they're feeling, where they're at, but also how they've recovered from being in different situations, feeling depressed, anxious, um, or or anything else that that we might speak about in the group, and how you've got to a better place now. And and for me that's been the best thing about the group. It was Scotland at first, but then I was like, now I work at that rest, which is obviously UK-wide. So yeah, anybody can join, anybody's welcome. Um so if you just contact me on LinkedIn, I used to have an email for the group, I still do, but it ends up just it ended up just fill up full of different kind of spam spam emails, so I didn't see the important ones. So people just contact me on LinkedIn, then I can send you the link for the group, then it's as easy as that.
SPEAKER_01Would you have any advice for anyone, you know, who's saying, look, there's a guy in my life, he's clearly struggling, but I don't know how to get through to him. Is there anything that you would sort of say to people as I don't know, advice or to to try and help with someone who might be a man specifically who might be struggling with his mental health?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I mean, you probably know better than me, Anthony, but but to give my take on it, I think with suicide, there's a lot of stigma around it. People don't want to talk about it generally, and then when they do, I think there's quite a lot of kind of skirting round the issue, so people won't generally even say the word suicide. Um and because of that, there's this shame attached to when you feel that way. But the reality is if you feel that way, you you feel that way, and you need to find a way to not feel that way. Some people that will be helped by talking about it and chatting through how they're feeling with somebody that they trust. So if if there is somebody that has some one in their life like that, it's about being there and just making sure that you are listening to what they say without any judgment. There's also knowing what resources you can go to and what works for people. So getting people to phone up, for example, Law Care, which is a a law charity which looks after the mental health of. the the legal profession they have online chats they have a a call centre you can email them as well but it's about knowing where to send people to get professional help but also what I would say is something that changed for me was about finding purpose in something so realizing okay what it is that what is it that I actually want to get out of my life and what I realised is that I just want to help other people enjoy the passage of time enjoy life I've already mentioned that but that is my purpose in life that that that's why I think that I'm here and as soon as I've realized that I don't think I've ever I've never felt suicidal again so it's it's about helping people find that purpose but also I think sometimes as a guy you don't want to tell people when you're having these thoughts because you don't want people kind of pandering around you making sure you're constantly okay because there's some shame that's that attached to that but it's for me is really about getting to know the individual I don't think there's one role that fits everybody but it's about working out how people help how people like to be helped and then and then working with that but what I would say to everybody and I say it all the time because it's so true is better days are coming always so no matter if you're having a really good day today or you're having a really bad day today better days are always coming and I think having that hope and knowing that that's around the corner is one way to just keep you going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I love that I love them that other one of don't don't leave before the miracle happens. You know I know it's cheesy but like I do love that and and that idea I think it's really interesting what you were saying because you know we talk a lot about wellbeing these days and and focusing on yourself which is really important. But as you said or as I think you alluded to actually trying to be of service to others or think about others is often the best way of getting out of your own head and feeling useful. Like I've I find that a really helpful antidote to you know whatever dark clouds might be kind of surrounding me. It's like just get out of your own head and go and try and be of use to somebody else. You know it's not foolproof and you do have to think about yourself obviously but that I think that's a really helpful message. When we were chatting uh a few weeks ago we talked a bit about addiction in the profession as well which again I think is massively stigmatized. No one really wants to talk about it actually you've touched already on workaholism you know substance abuse alcoholism gambling you know all of that sort of stuff I've talked openly about being sober for 20 years. Like I I I think it's really important we talk about addiction in the profession because I think it goes hand in hand with highly geared individuals, you know, some of whom have ADHD which is kind of interrelated with addiction to some degree um but you you also talked about love and sex addiction which I found really interesting and I just wondered if you could say a little bit about addiction within the profession, your experiences.
SPEAKER_02Yeah of course so I think with any addiction what it comes from and again you'll know better than me but this this is just my own experience and in the the group and the people that I've spoken to but I think what we're looking for especially in today's world where getting quick fixes of dopamine is easy so when they're not feeling right in whatever way I think human nature is to go and find relief quickly. So whether that is going to get a drink, taking drugs, gambling as I say even things like social media. So doing that scroll thing to remove the pain that you're feeling for however long that that takes but what we always know deep down is that following that will be an even worse feeling and then the the way that that's then dealt with is to then go and do that thing again but more and that I think that's where addiction can come from I've I I know and have known a lot of people who have experienced addiction but it's not a it's not a good place to be and it's not an easy thing to deal with and I think we always need to deal with that with empathy because um the bottom line is that people are just struggling feeling pain that they want to to get away from and it's getting to the that root of the pain that we can we can help with and and again that is something that the group set up to achieve I never want anybody to feel any sort of shame when they're speaking about um addiction but but something that I've kind of realised is that this would this is what we spoke about before but when you look at the amount of people you look at divorce rates for example but when you look at the amount of people who are in long-term relationships but are really unhappy for whatever reason I think that's another form of addiction in a way that they know that it's not good for them but continue to do it. Because I I I don't know why but that's just something that I've noticed in society and around the people that I've I've spoken to almost people choosing to surround themselves with people who make their lives worse and that's something that's never spoken about at all.
SPEAKER_03Because there's a there's a shame attached to that as well people don't people don't want to admit any of these things and a lot of them are silent and they're probably the most dangerous addictions to have I I need to I need to ask actually both of you about this because when you get in your 50s life gets very boring and health things come up I I've had to quit drinking and the thing is it's been long enough now that I I've been out to dinners and and various things like this and suddenly the sort of it's it's like you're living in a different world because you suddenly think Christ these people got really pissed and they're awful I was that guy all right I mean the thing is I started out the Scotsman newspaper in the 90s where I was on the night shift as a copy boy and you'd you'd go to the jingling Geordie on the flesh market stairs right at the back of the print works on your way home at six in the morning for you know a a couple of beers and alcohol is everywhere in the media everywhere you go and you you I'm always interviewing people at events and there's champagne flowing and it's all hospitality and wonderful darling but you know the thing is when you're not drinking you also see what a debilitating effect it has on people sort of socially and you wind up having the most boring conversations of thinking oh god you know so I've I've made an idiot of myself I've bored people to death I've I've been insulting without meaning to I've you know I've fallen over stupidly um and and all these memories sort of flashbacks and I clearly I didn't drink enough because I can still remember doing these things the these flashbacks come back and I am consumed by this sort of like embarrassment um that must be a very difficult thing to deal with if if you've you you you place yourself in that and you've got a reputation around that and it's in a close knit industry like the law is that shame does that keep them locked in that pattern of sort of uh sort of self-medicating with alcohol and uh and drugs and that sort of thing or I mean how do you break out of it and not suddenly wake up and think oh god I've made an idiot myself for the last 20 years so it's the only substance in the world that you have to explain why you're not taking it um which is which is fascinating to me I think as well as the shame of doing that and getting drunk and maybe saying or doing things that you feel shame about that there also and it's getting better now but there also is this shame around not drinking and having to explain why you're not drinking.
SPEAKER_02So when you're at those events and people ask why you're not drinking I I'm not sure that that's a I'm not sure that that's a a good question to ask anybody and and there is that feeling of for me I would just rather not go to an event sometimes if I knew that that was the question that I was going to be asked but also on the drinking side of things and that that regret feeling I think a lot of the time you have that a guy at uni said to me once that a hangover feels like you've ruined your life but you don't know why and so even if you haven't done anything that that you you do regret and you you just get quite a fuzzy memory you still will have that feeling of oh no what have I done and I would just rather not not have that but I think at the end of the day people are generally tolerant there's not really much that's the absolute end of the world and if you're in a situation where you are really drunk I think there is an also also an element of I mean with the exception of that you've done something really bad but I think there's an element of you just have to forgive yourself because that's what road you went down that night and nobody's perfect all the time so there is an element of of that but I if it gets to be the case where you're then taking that substance again to block that feeling out I think that's a problem and you and you should just maybe explore maybe experiment what it would feel like if you just didn't do that and tried to get through that initial uncomfortable feeling that you have I think that's the key to so much about change in life isn't it it's like trying to sort of accept that there will be an initial uncomfortable feeling if you're gonna try and change anything but over that hill is is brighter brighter times ahead um so I think that's a that's a good message to take us out on I feel really regretful though that we haven't asked you to bring your guitar today and to um play it what's your Spotify link what's this how do people feel if you just type in my name um it's a body I used to sing in a duel with my cousin as well but their songs are kinda older but yeah if you just type my name in you'll see I I could just listen to you all day I've found it very poignant at points and I um I think it's a brilliant thing that that you've done with the men's wellbeing group and also you know the way you kind of carry yourself within the profession.
SPEAKER_01So thank you for joining us. So we've already done shout outs for where you can find James um you can also find him at the Nat West website presumably as well um you can find me at our TCC website Carvalliotherapy.com that's C-A-R-V-A-L-H-O or my LinkedIn page linkedin.com forward slash in forward slash amory carvallio uh do check out our other episodes at stayingsaininlaw.buzzsprout dot com or wherever you get your podcasts James can you say a quick goodbye for us yeah of course thank you very much and many and Andrew for having me on your podcast today I really enjoyed it and yeah I look forward to hearing thank you so much for joining us um and thank you everyone for listening and uh remember we're all a little bit wonky and if you haven't seen James on LinkedIn yet go and see him he's a very good looking young man with a lovely hose trim beard I'm just guessing for the for the for the people my age out there for the people my age out there the mums are all the mums are all gonna take a look and they say ooh ooh why are you putting James in this like category he's the guy your mum fancies sorry James is going to be absolutely 100% the guy my him and Michael Phillips are the the guys that my mum fan tell you that much